This Day in Aviation History
August 27th, 1990
First flight of the Northrop YF-23 Black Widow II.
The Northrop/McDonnell Douglas YF-23 was an American single-seat, twin-engine stealth fighter aircraft technology demonstrator designed for the United States Air Force (USAF). The design was a finalist in the USAF’s Advanced Tactical Fighter (ATF) competition, battling the Lockheed YF-22 for a production contract. Two YF-23 prototypes were built with the nicknames “Black Widow II” and “Gray Ghost”.
In the 1980s, the USAF began looking for a replacement for its fighter aircraft, especially to counter the USSR’s advanced Sukhoi Su-27 and Mikoyan MiG-29. Several companies submitted design proposals; the USAF selected proposals from Northrop and Lockheed. Northrop teamed with McDonnell Douglas to develop the YF-23, while Lockheed, Boeing and General Dynamics developed the YF-22.
The YF-23 was stealthier and faster, but less agile than its competitor. After a four-year development and evaluation process, the YF-22 was announced the winner in 1991 and entered production as the Lockheed Martin F-22 Raptor. The U.S. Navy considered using the production version of the ATF as the basis for a replacement to the F-14, but these plans were later canceled. The two YF-23 prototypes were museum exhibits as of 2009…..
Source:
Wikipedia, Northrop YF-23: http://gstv.us/1MVzdzb
YouTube, YF 23 black widow II: http://gstv.us/2bqXlwO
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Photo from: http://gstv.us/2bqXReb
#avgeek #Northrop #YF23 #military #prototype #USA #aviation #history #fb
Very cool an interesting
Spy plane?
I wanted to. Fly and inmates blinded
I’m blind lol
https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/B8EZoGSNGzGQu1hgffpuBlSdV9ZSHMHDfUT2NJJgYjuR72K76mklKT-fRiqmi7Tf7SSx0Y6_
Mike Corey No, a replacement for the F-15 fighter/interceptor. Northrop proposed an expanded version as a tactical bomber, as a replacement for the F-111 and F-15E, but it wasn’t ever tested.
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Is one almost like that in the intrepid carrier in NYC the Black Bird hypersonic to THE Max
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That’s a awesome aircraft. I wish that the YF-23 went into production.
I liked that. Plain
It certainly has the lines that inspired the Raptor that’s for sure.
This is amazing! …. Sad that we are stuck with the failer that is f-35’s now adays…. XD
Best fighter in the world
It’s lines are unique and original. The stealth cross section is derived from the B2. Where the F22 took a basic fighter design and adapted it to a stealth cross section
Michael Nixon
Well, in hindsight, yes, we wish we had Northrop Grumman and McDonnell Douglas jointly produce this fighter jet, it would probably still be in production so that we wouldn’t have to worry about our beloved F-35!
There is still hope that a new fighter jet borrowing the stealth innovations of the YF-23, will be built, since Congress is considering restarting the F-22 production line. We shouldn’t do this due to sheer cost to restart production, and not wanting to give Lockheed Martin a distinct monopoly on our fighter jets.
Basically we start with the F-15SE Silent Eagle that Boeing proposed a while ago! To add more internal storage space and increase internal fuel capacity, you spread the engines apart, just like on the F-14. So, now you have a fixed wing F-14 look-alike, or “American Flanker”. So, adding features from the Grumman ASF-14, we add an automated Fowler flap system to the wings, and borrowing from the Russian Pak-Fa, we add an automated moving leading edge root extension surface area to the front of the wings, together, these control surfaces, along with two Pratt and Whitney F135 engines, allow for short take off and short landing, perfect for carrier operations. Now, you add heavy-duty naval landing gear and include the tow bar and tail hook. With a heavy duty landing gear, this fighter jet can now make short take off and landings on rough land air fields, perfect for the Marine Corps. Having a CATOBAR fighter jet, with folding wings and tailerons, in operation with the Air Force and Marine Corps, you now have a true joint branch fighter jet that can also make carrier landings which permits cross-branch training for emergency war conditions, whether it being to quickly rearm or to refuel and launch back into service, or for Navy and Air Force pilots, to utilize rough land air bases of the Marine Corps. This capability makes our military much more adaptable and fluid for any given situation during a major war! Plus, this fighter jet can carry additional munitions on it’s wings, depending upon the needs for a given mission.
Now, after all of these features put into the design proposal, we now add the stealth features from the Northrop Grumman YF-23, most notably the exhaust heat shielding! Despite the F-22 having 2D thrust vectoring, in close range combat, the added weight of this system on the ass end and the tendency of any thrust vectoring jet to rapidly lose energy momentum, can put it at a disadvantage! By this fighter jet having both a computer automated Fowler flap system and computer automated LERX control surface, the additional provided lift can be used to enhance combat maneuvering! So, this new fighter jet does not need thrust vectoring when the better tactical advantage comes from reducing it’s infrared signature by enclosing the exhaust with heat absorbing tiles, top/bottom/sides 360 degrees if possible. The YF-23 only had bottom end heat shielding, but when trying to evade infrared missile tracking and infrared sensors, you really need shielding from all sides of the fighter jet, naturally excluding the rear. Any other stealth features that are a secret from the YF-23 can be incorporated on this F-15/F-14 hybrid Silent Sea Eagle proposal!
The final product should be vastly superior to the F-22, and if produced by both Boeing and Northrop Grumman, the price should be much better and the quality considerably better than what we have experienced with Lockheed Martin!
Maurice Geake
The YF-22 was built to compete with the YF-23, they were produced by different manufacturers, so the YF-23 couldn’t have inspired the YF-22, which won the competition by it’s more conventional looks and would become the F-22.
No aries, what I said was Lockeed took a 5th gen fighter and made it stealthy Northrop rewrote the book and created a new fighter from scratch adapting what they found to work on the B2 (coencidenty) that is also why Northrop lost the bid despite having a more capable plane, to many untested variables
Commmander 64 the F-35 is anything but a failure but okay
David Simmons
Even so, the YF-23 was more stealthy than the YF-22.
This proposal I threw out is a means to address why the YF-23 lost the bid and try to capitalize on those stealthier features with a proven platform, the F-15.
The proposal I have thrown out allows for more internal weapons to be stored than the F-22 and certainly the F-35! However, just like the Boeing F-15SE proposal, this fighter jet can carry external weapons on it’s wings, it all depends on it’s mission and the amount of stealth required!
This proposal is much more flexible than the YF-23 seemed to be and is much more superior than the F-22 and F-35!
J Hampton
Yeah, but with our national debt and military equipment falling out of the sky due to age and maintenance issues, I wouldn’t put much emphasis on US building tons of F-35s when we only need a few of them for advanced forward air controller duty.
What I said about thrust vectoring is true. It’s great for air shows but provides little to no advantages during close air dog fights. You still need to maintain energy momentum to gain an advantage on an adversary. If you try to pull the stunts performed by Flanker pilots at air shows during a close air engagement, your wingman will be able splash the Flanker pilot getting cute with the thrust vectoring at stall speed.
J Hampton
The F-35 is here to stay because Lockheed Martin won’t sell the avionics technology separately! However, if they used the F-22 to assist the F-35 during those Air Force Red Flag games, and they tested using F-15s and F-16s to enhance their combat abilities, it is clear that the F-35 doesn’t need to be built in mass amounts and that it really requires other fighter jets to do the dirty work and provide air cover for the F-35 to operate with impunity!
So, this paves the way for an F-22 replacement made by Boeing and Northrup Grumman. We should be able to salvage fighter jets from AMARG, right, give them ten or so more years of service life until the F-22 replacement is in production.
J Hampton all we need is the F-35, F-22, Super Hornet, and F-15.
BROCOM OF THE SUKHOI BUREAU
We use our old stock of fighter jets, including those mothballed at AMARG as long as we can until we can get the replacement F-22 into production. Fleets of ONLY F-35s makes no sense when you need only a few providing the targeting priorities to other fighter jets or weapons systems.
astrologeramanshastri.com – Love guru in delhi – Pt. Aman Shastri – +91-9878279789
Better than the F-22. Longer range and stealthier design.
Aries Man who said that there were only gonna be F-35s? That’s like the dumbest thing anyone can say
astrologeramanshastri.com – Love guru in delhi – Pt. Aman Shastri – +91-9878279789
….it’s ALL GOOD!….until (((SOMEBODY))) steals the tech and exfiltrates it to other countries on the BLACK MARKET!!!
theguardian.com – Israeli military intelligence unit drives country’s hi-tech boom | World news | The Guardian
BROCOM OF THE SUKHOI BUREAU
Every article I read, the U.S. Air Force wants 2,000 of them to replace their A-10, F-15, and F-16. The Marines need a replacement for the Harrier so I won’t bash their B model, but the Navy seems reluctant when they want more Growlers and Super Hornets. Lets do the Navy better, get them their own stealth fighter jet that can be likened to the Tomcat. The Air Force is already planning for a sixth generation replacement for the F-22, penetrating counter air (PCA), it sounds just as bad as the JSF! What about our Navy and why does the Air Force take precedence?
nextbigfuture.com – NextBigFuture.com
😕
Aries Man 1. The F-35 isn’t completely replacing the F-15, it’s just gonna be taking some work off of the F-15
2. The F-35 isn’t replacing the A-10, which ever plane that is chosen for the A-X program will be
3. There was a NATF that was an F-22 with a swing wing design but it was cancelled because of development costs
4. The F-35 will be working in tandem with the Super Hornets and Growlers
Wahahaha is that really Aries Man because I think is a Broccoli Man for real 😊😊😊😊😂😂😂😂
Aries Man why? Lockheed can’t build carrier born aircraft to save their life and they bought most of the people in the senate
Kristine L Lubumad
What the hell does that mean? A little under the influence this early morn?!
BROCOM OF THE SUKHOI BUREAU
Are you sure the F-35 isn’t totally replacing the A-10, F-15, and F-16? I mean, it defeats the purpose to build something new and claim it is so superior and yet keep these “old” and “outdated” jets in service. Too much money too!
I am aware of the NATF, but the ASF-14 would have been a better bet. My proposal is basically a YF-23 version of an ASF-14 that is fixed wing from the body of an F-15 that can load weapons internally. Make sense?
Cendre Gaming
Well, I say the sixth generation fighter jet build to replace our F-22 should automatically be given to Boeing and Northrop Grumman.
Wahahaha Broccoli man you said a little influence omg😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂
Aries Man The F-35 is completely replacing the F-16 and legacy hornets. The majority of the jobs that were done by the F-15 will now be performed by the F-35. And the A-10 is being replaced by A-X which is happening as we speak. And the F-35 will work in tandem with the Super Hornet
Wahahaha really whatever 😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂
BROCOM OF THE SUKHOI BUREAU
If we are smart, we will keep the A-10 and upgrade the avionics while leaving the F-35 to control those fricken “micro drones” intended for the A-X
Better yet, transfer the A-10 to the Army and the Marine Corps, the Air Force shouldn’t screw with this platform only to bastardize it!
popularmechanics.com – The Air Force Plan to Build an A-10 Replacement
Kristine L Lubumad
“Stupid is as stupid does, Madam.”
Aries Man If we were dumb we would keep the A-10. The A-10 is so old man and it is getting more and more expensive to keep. Plus Fairchild went out of business a LONG time ago if you didn’t know(aye that rhymed). Also, the A-X is a light attack CAS platform(which has been the A-10s job for almost the past two decades). I don’t know where you got micro drones from
BROCOM OF THE SUKHOI BUREAU
The A-10 is still cheaper to service and fly than the new F-35 intended to replace it, or even that bastardized A-X proposal.
Yes, Fairchild went out of business, but that don’t mean we can’t reverse engineer the air frame and parts and reproduce the son of of a bitch by Boeing or Northrup Grumman or, (gag) Lockheed Martin. Hell, they could even upgrade the air frame and incorporate that same sensor fusion technology into the second generation A-10! This thing could possibly communicate with individual soldiers and Marines on the ground and take out targets that have them pinned down without instances of fratricide, lighting up our troops on the HUD or helmet screen.
Did you even read the article I linked to my last comment? READ IT
popularmechanics.com – The Air Force Plan to Build an A-10 Replacement
नौकरी चाहिए तो देखें कौन से विभाग/कंपनी में पद खाली है :-
govtjobfix.in – Karnataka State Police (KSP) Recruitment – 2017
We can only imagine what type of aircraft is in active development right now, if this is a design from the ’90.
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Steve-O the F22 does have the range advantage over the 23 however the 23 has a smaller radar cross section higher sevice altitude heavier payload and higher top speed mostly because it’s a bigger plane.
Ow omg who built that that so cool
W
J Hampton
ditto that [from an F-4 C.C.]
Aries Man 1. The A-10 is way too expensive to maintain for the job it does. IIRC it cost about 17k~18k USD just to maintain. Compare that to the Gripen which only costs about 4K USD but can do a WHOLE lot more
2. The F-35 is not replacing the A-10, like I said before the A-X is. The F-35 is too expensive to use for the A-10’s job
3. A-X is going to be cheaper than A-10
4. What is up with you guys and the A-10? Jesus Christ is so overrated and there are many other light attack CAS platforms just as capable, if not, more capable than the A-10 and a whole lot cheaper
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David Simmons the YF-23 had a more powerful engine
The YF-22 and YF-23 are both at the same level but the YF-22 its more good looking and its a good policy to build good looking things.
BROCOM OF THE SUKHOI BUREAU
Yo. You ask.
You get an answer.
Very few aircraft have the ability to just do slow turn figure 8’s above the conflict zone.
It’s built like a tank with wings, can survive hell being thrown at it & best of all, it takes out armour like a knife through butter.
Guess you’d have to have had a bit of tech training with them to know “what’s up with us guys”
Ya dig?
Worthy Challenger to the F22..
R M Mills it can definitely survive hell. That’s exactly why it had more losses than the F-16 in desert storm even though it only did a fraction of the CAS sorties the F-16 performed. There many other planes in the world who can take out enemy armor like a hot knife through butter for a cheaper price COUGH JAS-39 Gripen COUGH A-29 Super Tucano COUGH
R M Mills seriously the A-10 costs too much for what it does
BROCOM OF THE SUKHOI BUREAU
when you learn how to read the entire post & don’t cherry pick what you want to reply to, get back with me.
Current options in the pipeline are more expensive than the A10 & they don’t perform the [cough] mission as well.
Take a [BS] pill for that cough.
And get a real profile name/ photo if you want to be taken seriously.
Otherwise you’re just 1 more airchair “wingless jockey” with an opinion.
…. …. …. ….
[If they can keep the -52 going with mods, they can keep the ‘hog going in a similar fashion.
Acquisition is out of control.
It’s spend spend spend for the Machine to keep it’s profits up…
R M Mills also, most CAS operations aren’t performed by flying low and slow anymore. The only time CAS is performed that way is if there are some Toyota trucks that need to be taken care of or if ground troops troops need to take out some insurgents or they’re pinned down
BROCOM OF THE SUKHOI BUREAU
and … ?
You propose a drone for that I suppose.
Someone away from the field in a “trailer” using a joystick.
eyes on target.
Split second decisions.
Gottcha.
Anything else…?
R M Mills why are you still going on about the A10 it is irreplaceable as an attack aircraft. But the F23 is multiple role air domance fighter, Segway man, Segway.
R M Mills that’s my point, literally all of the extremely low intensity CAS operations done by the A-10 could easily be done by a UCAV
David Simmons saying the A-10 is irreplaceable is an overstatement. The A-10 is more than replaceable
BROCOM OF THE SUKHOI BUREAU
and there is where you make the mistake.
Robots [drones are robots] can’t make split second decisions in a 360°realm without assistance.
Training gives you peripheral vision & you can only see what’s on that screen.
I had you pegged with your previous answers.
The Pentagon “complex” loves dudes like you becuz they can sell you anything.
Nothing can replace adequately a pair of eyes on scene above the scrum.
Real eyes.
Civilian casualties are the reason.
You want to win?
Stop killing civilians with a robot with missles.
Yeah. There were some incidents a few years back with pilots hitting /making a bad call.
But, go ahead, have at it.
I want the guy protecting my [head] to be above me & seeing exactly what I see.
R M Mills did you completely forget about A-X. That is what is gonna replace the A-10. It’s either gonna be the A-29 or the Cessna Scorpion. Both are capable light attack aircraft that are not too expensive to maintain for the job. Me personally would prefer if they chose the A-29 but I’m pretty sure the Cessna will be the one to replace the A-10
BROCOM OF THE SUKHOI BUREAU as far as the gripen is concerned it is an excellent multi role fighter but it does not have the low stall speed, loiter capability or the rotory wing escort capability, it is a jack of many trades but a master of none. and as for the super tucano, well you get what you pay for
David Simmons Like I said, I don’t see the Super Tucano winning but these planes will only be used for extreme-low intensity CAS missions where they will probably do so,e gun runs or something on enemy infantry. The planes that will be doing the normal CAS are the F-35, the Super Hornet, and our bombers.
Now I’m rambling, bottom line is this, the F23 is a better cheaper to produce more expensive to maintain grumpy cat that air Force brass feared would not be cost effective in the long run.
BROCOM OF THE SUKHOI BUREAU ok I’ll say it flat out from someone who has 13 years in army aviation I much prefer a close air support aircraft who can ride with me all the way to the x the promise of a multi role fighter I will be there when you need me. Actions speak louder than words
Wahahaha whatever more and more pathetic retarded humans everywhere, most of them likes to makes fools of themselves 😆😆😆😆😆😆😆😆😆😆😆😆😆😆
Kristine L Lubumad well let’s have your opinion
Wahahaha just be quite 😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂
It’s called a message board if you don’t have an opinion then take your own advice
actually the YF22 vs the YF23 happened in 2000 I was Davis mounthan doing the weather forecasts for nellis afb and white sands new mexico bombing grounds where the competition happened. the yf23 out flew the yf22 but publicly congress said that mcdonall douglas had just won a contract for a cargo plane and they wanted lockheed to stay in biz making F15,F16,F22 and later the JSF in 1997 there was plenty of money in the budget but companies were asked to improve upon the fighters they had not ask for new contracts to build totally new fighter jets. my guess is something is trying to bury that jet that mcdonall built for the marine corp was the rotating wing that got replaced with the osprey. If they don’t remember the mistakes it is kinda hard to remember what broke and what lead to the parts breaking so that solutions can be engineered to prevent those issues. they all make good air frame they just to spend more time innovating on shared technology and learn to understand physics and stop depending on the C130 keel to get them through the design process. It was great in 1954 and in 1990 but we need to take what we learned flying those and actually take those concepts to the next level, it has only been sixty some odd years we have been flying designs based off it.
Wahahaha good ☺
BROCOM OF THE SUKHOI BUREAU
Short and sweet, here is why we need to keep the A-10 platform going!
No matter how technologically advanced our ground forces become, they are going to benefit immensely from having a guardian angel in the sky to pound away at any enemy force that has our boys and girls pinned down, or worse, surrounded! More technology should enable every single ground force, Army or Marine Corps, to be identified by an A-10’s computer which then projects their locations on the HUD or helmet screen. This new technology will help prevent instances of fratricide while allowing A-10 pilots to quickly identify areas where hostiles need to be eradicated by strafing runs while seeing where exactly our troops are in the process!
What about the air defenses and tanks of the future that threaten the A-10?
Well, my question then would be why hasn’t the Air Force destroyed those threats to clear the area for our A-10s to safely fly and our ground forces to safely push forward? The A-10, especially a second generation version, should be able to handle RPG and MANPAD fire better than any other aircraft in our arsenal! So who is kidding who?
Aries Man in that first scenario, that’s all the A-10 is good for, engaging enemy infantry
2. That’s the reason why SEAD exists but the A-10 can’t handle MANPAD let alone an S-400. I don’t know what the A-10 would have to be made of in order to tank a MANPAD
BROCOM OF THE SUKHOI BUREAU
Does anyone give a damn about our ground forces? They need the close air support of the A-10, there is no way around it and no excuses should be made to take the A-10s superior cover away from our ground forces! If the Air Force does not want this job anymore, hand over the current A-10 fleets to the Army and Marine Corps. That is it!
Second, if the A-10 can not currently handle MANPADs, then lets figure out what needs to be done to enhance it’s survivability for 21st century warfare! Do you really think any other proposal to replace the current A-10 can fair any better than the design we have now?! I don’t think so!
Aries Man
The point of retiring the A-10 is that no matter how good at CAS it is, it can not survive a modern combat scenario, where you have several long range SAMs denying airspace.
BROCOM OF THE SUKHOI BUREAU
You have the Air Force clear the area of those enemy air defenses and threats BEFORE you send in A-10s to provide air cover for our ground troops!
Am I missing something? You don’t send in fighter jets when you have enemy air defenses up and running with impunity!
Aries Man But I don’t think you understand that the A-10 only does low intensity CAS in areas that there is no SAMs whatsoever. Because of that, it is way too expensive for the job it does
BROCOM OF THE SUKHOI BUREAU
Says who, the Air Force who doesn’t want to perform this job anymore? The same Air Force that was caught by Congress trying to defund the A-10 and redirecting those funds to the F-35?
Who the hell puts a price on our ground forces lives? The Air Force don’t win wars, it’s the boots on the ground who mop up what our fighter jets can’t seem to eliminate with smart bomb drops!
There is no freaking way in hell that the A-10 is too expensive to operate when we are pushing that God awful money pit of an F-35 through! The A-10 can still knock out tanks and armored vehicles, or even assist in strike missions, what the hell do we have the F-35 for with it’s sensor fusion?!
Upgrade the A-10 and save our country millions upon millions in developing a shoddy replacement!
the f22 f35 are the air frames that most of the aerospace companies and corporations said was needed to get pilots trained to fly before attempting to fly a fighter jet that doubles as a space shuttle. I think it is a matter of going from four things to pay attention to information over load. I think it is more than simply flying. nasa and other counties use the 104 for training astronauts but most of the instruments don’t work at high speed in those and the f35 is getting a more modern heads up display that is replacing the instruments. personally I like the idea all the info on a hud but I still think some of the instruments need to be mechanical as backups to what is on the screen. but that is what the 37 series is for. figuring out what is possible and getting all the aerospace companies working together. The a10 works by having two turbo fans on the back of the air frame and they move in place. so shoot the wings off too bad for the enemy they are not creating uplift only drag to hold the weapons. so when you see the 37 series focus on pride in country not pride in one platform or another. but you used to fly and a10 look for the heritage there is likely something form the the a10 in the newer design series with a new sitting congress.
David Simmons
I was answering only to what I kept reading in the comment section by “bro whatever”.
I wasn’t planning to comment at all but the insistence to drag on isn’t my call.
The monopoly & clamouring display to be a Wing Nut kept it going.
I saw a notification & then saw your comment just now.
It is what it is.
I don’t like some of the newer generation ‘craft. I keep hearing about budget issues but $$ is thrown at boondoggle ideas.
It’s what it is.
As for the AX …
It is money being spent to design & test & keep the profits up.
Budget busting …
Should I add how much more than everyone else we spend?
Retrofitting can be useful.
I happen to think the -10 could be a good example.
I know about the “per hour” cost difference vs other ‘craft.
But this isn’t a new issue.
The same was said about other ‘craft in days past.
As for the YF-23, it’s design had something to do with it not being selected & I sat in on a discussion less than 2 yrs ago about these ‘craft.
It was given by Northrop & you’ve probably heard the name of the person who led the discussion.
I also have been present when a YF-17 discussion was given at a local museum.
There are many prototypes that dot the landscape for visitors to view.
Aries Man
That’s the key.
Stop throwing money at boondoggles.
But some people look at the shiny bauble.
You can gloss up anything.
I prefer tried & true.
Each scenario tested in real conditions.
the -35 is a joke.
There. I said it.
The back up is in all the tech/ design issues.
the expression “put up or shut up” could be applied to those advocating for it.
R M Mills
I have nothing against building new weaponry if it is clearly superior and definitely required for a change in the warfare of the time.
When I look at the F-35, it seems like we are taking steps backwards with our weaponry, not forwards! Computer chips should miniaturize, not our fighter jets!
Sure, the F-14 was a maintenance hog and it got progressively worse with age. We have technology now that would fix the problems of the old version, but I concede that the space taken up for the sweep wing system is better utilized for internal weapons storage and more fuel capacity. So, we revisit the “Sea Eagle proposal” and build an F-15 like a fixed wing F-14. Now, you have yourself an American Flanker with pretty damn long legs for our Navy! Don’t tell me the Navy wouldn’t be interested, especially when giving this F-15 all the electronic attack features from the E/A-18 Growler!
Now you add stealth innovation from the YF-23, and all the other stuff I wrote an essay about and now you have yourself a worthy replacement for some of our older stock fighter jets.
Aries Man upgrading our legacy aircraft would cost more than the F-35 program itself
R M Mills yeah I’m pretty sure that a 20-1 kill loss ratio is a joke
BROCOM OF THE SUKHOI BUREAU
Whatever.
Go get a job at the Pentagon.
With the way things are going, maybe you can be top dog before long.
We spend too much.
We don’t need to keep procuring to defeat armies that unless we’re trying to gain submission thru threats of superiority.
Our budgets won’t be able to sustain it.
No facts or rumors can change that.
Maybe you should get outside & get some “fresh” air.
At the rate we’re going, it won’t be “fresh” for long.
Leave the weaponizing to the so-called experts, Bro.
There’s enuf hawks flying around.
BROCOM OF THE SUKHOI BUREAU
The -35 is a boondoogle/joke.
P.S. STICK TO YOUR VIDEO GAMES WHERE MONEY IS NO OPTION, AND EVERYBODY HAS A RESET BUTTON.
real world solutions don’t need the biggest,
baddestweapons everytime.R M Mills 1. I don’t even play video games, I spend my time checking up on military aircraft.
2. Please explain to me how the F-35 is a joke? Because last time I checked, pilots would much rather fly the F-35 than the F-16
Aries Man I’m pretty sure Red Flag was good example of how superior the F-35 is. 145 kills and only 7 losses
BROCOM OF THE SUKHOI BUREAU
Red Flag is your only example?
I’m not sure how old you are, but you sound like you discovered sliced bread.
The -35 has had more issues in developement than expected.
Look up “boondoogle”
Perhaps seeing the definition in print will help you picture the -35 next to it.
I’m not going to change your mind & wouldn’t expect you to do so.
But trying to change my mind on this boondoogle is a waste of your video gaming.
Stick to joysticks.
This jet will never do all that it’s expected to do.
Active duty crews are not able to speak freely in public forums about design flaws.
the UCMJ calls it aiding & abetting. Giving comfort to the enemy.
The Air Force won’t admit they chased a rabbit down the hole.
Lockheed can’t just start over.
of course it’ll get “high marks”.
Do you believe everything you see & read from the government?
[This may surprize you but I was Air Force. I don’t enjoy slamming their decision.]
R M Mills typical from a F-35 hater. Anything that is from a credible source (Defense company, testers/pilots, the government itself) is automatically propaganda. You guys are absolutely hilarious.
BROCOM OF THE SUKHOI BUREAU
So are you.
Problem is, this ain’t the circus.
Deal with it.
Get help with that gullibility.
Someone might try to convince that bombing the hell out of everyone you disagree with will help you make friends with them.
Hey. We’re the biggest military.
when is enough enough.
To anyone else reading this, I’m not anti-military nor a “troll”
I just think a different design would’ve served our purposes better.
[and reengineering older proven ‘craft can, sometimes, prove to be a wise choice.]
R M Mills look, I used to despise the F-35 just like you. I honestly thought that it was a horrible aircraft. But, some guys that I’m now friends with changed my mind about the F-35. They’re the reason why I know about the X-24 lifting body vehicle. Also doing some in depth research about the F-35 also was a factor. Instead of using unreliable and biased sources (RT, Pierre “Turkey” Sprey, War is Boring, David Axe, etc), I decided to use credible sources and also look at some statements from F-35 pilots themselves who love the plane. I’m pretty sure if there was something wrong with the plane or if it was that bad, the JSF program would’ve been canceled or there would be a lot more complaints from pilots about the F-35
R M Mills sometimes yes it is a wise choice but at some point, legacy aircraft are gonna have to get replaced and that time is fast approaching
R M Mills but as a superpower, the US wants to have the most advanced aircraft and tech at all times, the point is to stay ahead of at least keep up with the advancing technologies.
BROCOM OF THE SUKHOI BUREAU
I’m not easily swayed & I’m not overly stubborn but the procurement arm for the Armed Services is a broken process completely influenced by money.
Politics & the spreading out of subcontractors to multiple regions to give everyone a piece of the salami has made cancelling a program hard to do.
Boeing tried to cancel the C-17 line for awhile becuz of no orders.
The Air Force didn’t want anymore.
They couldn’t sell anymore.
shut down.
They wanted / needed that money for …
Fighters are glamourous.
Heavy lifters overworked throughout the world that can serve just as well in peacetime for humanitarian missions don’t sell well.
People go to Air Shows for the Fighters.
So, more fighters… [again?]
Imagine a F-23 block 20…
Quelle Ligne, oulalàààà!!!!
BROCOM OF THE SUKHOI BUREAU
Quote, “I’m pretty sure Red Flag was good example of how superior the F-35 is. 145 kills and only 7 losses”
The F-22 was assisting the F-35 in those kills.
https://theaviationist.com/2017/02/28/red-flag-confirmed-f-35-dominance-with-a-201-kill-ratio-u-s-air-force-says/
As per the article, “They also performed in an air-to-air role: although we don’t know the ROE (Rules of Engagement) in place for the drills nor the exact role played by the F-22 Raptors that teamed up with the Lightning II throughout the exercise, the results achieved by the F-35, appear to be impressive, especially considering the 5th Gen. aircraft’s additional tasking during RF.”
So, the F-35 gets the credit for F-22 kills? Boy does Lockheed Martin got our military defending their product! Thank God for little tid-bits of the truth in these articles, but you have to read them and scrutinize them!
Also, explain to me how the F-35 is so superior in it’s maneuverability?
youtube.com – F-35 Aerial Demonstration Debut at 2017 Paris Air Show
The only thing I am seeing is painfully slow demonstrations of tight turns and stall stunts. If the F-35 tried this crap during air combat with a Russian flanker, it would get it’s ass handed to it! Now we know the F-35 needs air superiority cover!
Aries Man 1. The air kills at red flag aren’t the only thing the F-35 dominated in,
2. I said it was superior overall, I never said any specifics, even so the F-35 is still limited to 7Gs. Its superiority is thanks to its avionics and stealth. Although the F-35 is quite agile
Aries Man also the same could be said about the Flankers performing all of those stunts
Aries Man also keep in mind that this is just a demonstration made to impress the public
BROCOM OF THE SUKHOI BUREAU
where does it end?
When is enough really enough…?
That’s rhetorical.
I don’t expect you to actually have an answer for that.
R M Mills I mean, it was used out of context, of course I wouldnt have an answer for that
Oolooqn Liu mmmmm n q my jmmmk 😛 llpiq1
BROCOM OF THE SUKHOI BUREAU
Nor could you.
Dude.
This is getting old.
Go play with your toy soldiers.
Some of us have real jobs.
R M Mills “Go play with your toy soldiers” that’s quite immature of you to say lol. I think its safe to say to claim this as a victory for me.
BROCOM OF THE SUKHOI BUREAU
I need to see more of that F-35 “agility” you are speaking of because the Paris Air Show doesn’t reveal it! If this air show was meant to “impress”, it was pretty damn pathetic! Yeah, it can stall and spin it’s tail around with good control, but this isn’t something to be amazed at when dog fights require energy momentum and maintaining it. Nose authority is minor if you are trying to take down a fighter jet that is faster, has better thrust-to-weight than your fighter jet, and is more nimble!
Yes, the F-35 has better avionics, but you could throw those same avionics into an old F-15E and it too would be a game changer, and still be much more cheaper to operate than the F-35! Also, the F-35 stealth may not be as good as the F-22 and certainly not as good as the B-2 stealth bomber. Again, this information is hush-hush, but you already know where I stand on the stealth dedicated fighter jets! Computer chips should be miniaturizing, not our fighter jets!
Aries Man that’s first paragraph alone just shows how much you don’t know. The F-35 along with some other fighters in the U.S. Air Force are built based off of the energy-maneuverability theory in which an aircraft uses its energy to maneuver around a target. The F-35 will have the energy advantage over many fighters including the Flankers(really dragging when loaded with weapons) and the Euro canards (Delta wings and energy management don’t mix). The reason why I say it’s pretty nimble because pilots say that they would much rather fly the F-35 in a dogfight and the fact that it met the requirement for being at least as agile as the F/A-18. Although the exact turn rates of the F-35 are classified. Also, why do you guys think that dogfights are the only engagements that happen? Oh, and the F-35’s RCS has to be at least comparable to the F-22.
BROCOM OF THE SUKHOI BUREAU
At least you are not asking for google links to support my argument.
The Air Force can easily order it’s pilots to say good things about the F-35, but the proof is in the aerial display! There is nothing from that Paris Air Show that demonstrates that the F-35 is superior to the F-16! The best way to prove who is right is for the public to have a fly off between the two and a fly off between two pilots of equal experience with these fighter jets so that there is no particular advantage over the over. PLUS, both fighter jets need to be fully combat loaded! No bull shit, just real world scenario!
Other than this, I am only detecting parroted Lockheed Martin sales pitching and advertisements which I care nothing for! PROVE IT IS WHAT YOU SAY IT IS!
Aries Man The F-35 at the Paris Air Show perform with a full internal combat load with 50% fuel(which is +2,000 lbs more than the F-16 with 100% fuel). I bet you also believe that the earth is flat. I’m pretty sure if the F-35 was that bad, pilots would’ve said something by now or it would’ve not have performed as well as it did at Red Flag destroying all SAMs, scoring a 20-1 kill/loss ratio, and have a better maintenance rating than most, if not, all of the other aircraft that participated in Red Flag
BROCOM OF THE SUKHOI BUREAU
small victory for a smaller mind.
Aries Man
I already said the exact same thing.
He’s a shill.
R M Mills What the heck is a shill
R M Mills oh and I highly doubt a 15 year old like myself would be on the payroll of LM
BROCOM OF THE SUKHOI BUREAU
Your giving Lockheed Martin free advertising by parroting their sales pitches. Have a look at the comments for the Paris Air Show. Do you see how sad it is that most people don’t realize how unimpressive the F-35 was in it’s display of it’s “superior” maneuverability?
The Red Flag exercises had the F-22 flying with the F-35. So, who gets the credit for those kills? They say it was the F-35, but why have the F-22 flying with the F-35?
As far as the F-35 maintenance, this has yet to be proven! I still don’t like the notion of a bad faulty sensor on the F-35 putting out immediate orders to Lockheed Martin for new parts when the F-35 just has a faulty sensor!
Aries Man just because the F-22 was flying with the F-35 doesn’t mean that the F-35, didn’t get those kills. The F-22 also got kills of its own(I think around 200+). The confirmed number of kills for the F-35 are 145. I have a question, what is impressive a agility to you? Just because a plane isn’t super maneuverable doesn’t mean that it has bad maneuverability. That flat spin in the Paris Air Show shows just how agile the aircraft is.
BROCOM OF THE SUKHOI BUREAU
Those figures released by the Air Force could easily be doctored. Besides, I want to know what our F-15 can do with the F-35 avionics and no stealth.
What do I define as impressive agility? Outstanding thrust-to-weight, a fixed wing air frame that uses two of the F-35s Pratt and Whitney F135 engines. An F-15SE Silent Eagle proposal with it’s engines spaced further apart like a fixed wing ASF-14 proposal with an automated Fowler Flap system working in tandem with an automated leading edge root extension control surface on the front of the wings.
The F-14 could flat spin too, but it couldn’t recover from it the way the air frame was designed and without thrust vectoring. Flat spins don’t prove agility, they just prove how well the air frame can recover.
Aries Man those number figures weren’t “doctored”, those were actual records numbers from Red Flag. Watch the video of Bogdan giving the conclusion of the F-35 result at Red Flag
BROCOM OF THE SUKHOI BUREAU
Again, numbers can be doctored. Online articles can be biased, for or against, the F-35. The Air Force wants the F-35 in service and will do anything to fund it, the success of the F-35 depends on the number of buyers, especially U.S. allies. You start figuring shit is being made up to make it look better than it is. It’s no different than a car salesman trying to make that sale!
Aries Man Do you even know who Bogdan is?
Aries Man I never said numbers couldn’t be doctored, I just said that the Air Force’s numbers weren’t doctored
Aries Man youtube.com – Final F-35 Kill Ratios at Red Flag 17-1 (and USMC Exercises)
BROCOM OF THE SUKHOI BUREAU
Especially the Air Force doctoring anything with regards to keeping the F-35 flying!
Aries Man there’s something going on here:
1. You’re a troll
2. You’re a denier of truth
3. Or you didn’t watch the video
BROCOM OF THE SUKHOI BUREAU
1. I am extremely passionate about this topic. So, feel free to label me a troll.
2. The “truth” seems muddled about the F-35. With so much controversy, original reports by pilots being squashed by favorable reports, and with an Air Force doing everything they can to promote the F-35 as a huge success despite the continued need to fund more research and development, I am inclined to question the “truth” you believe in!
3. I have watched the video and my strong opinion has not changed ever so slightly!
Aries Man I’m assuming your favorable reports are probably from biased and unreliable sources(RT, War is Boring, Foxtrot Alpha, Pierre Sprey, etc)
BROCOM OF THE SUKHOI BUREAU
Is it your opinion, or someone else’s opinion, claiming sources to be unreliable? How about leaked Pentagon reports about the F-35, which were very convincing? More made-up b.s.?
Aries Man It’s not my opinion when you have a guy(Pierre Sprey) who lies about his achievements saying that he’s the designer of the A-10 and F-16 when in reality he was just a defense analyst. Then you have gullible people who don’t even try to fact check what people say actually believe what he says then you have biased media outlets(RT) use that man as a credible source of information on the F-35. Also, how do you squash claims made by the PILOTS WHO FLY THE F-35. I see the F-35 turning out just like the F-15. Receiving a bunch of criticism at first(Pierre Sprey also opposed the F-15 and called it a turkey), but turning out to be one of, if not, the best fighter jet in history.
BROCOM OF THE SUKHOI BUREAU
Sprey contributed to the collection of insights that ultimately lead to the F-16 and A-10. So, why stray from the great formula that is the A-10 and what was the F-16? Plus, if Sprey worked in the Pentagon as an analyst, well shit, his opinion is that much more important!
The development history of the F-15 compared to what is developing with the F-35 are two different worlds and hardly can be compared.
The F-15 can exceed Mach II whereas the F-35 can barely top Mach 1.6 or 1.8, whichever one is the true number!
The F-15 is an air superiority fighter jet, the F-35 is a multipurpose jet with stealth technology that was originally designed to have the F-22 providing air cover for it, and this case still holds true!
The F-15 carries a hell of a lot of ordinance and has an exceptional combat range, the F-35 carries little for dedicated stealth and not much more ordinance when stealth is not needed, but it has a bad combat range requiring constant in-flight refueling. This is great for the Air Force, bad for the Navy.
For all intents and purposes, the F-35 will never hold a candle to the F-15 nor it’s big brother, the F-22. The avionics technology is what is selling the F-35 but it is nothing more than an over glorified stealth ground attack jet!
Aries Man +Aries Man 1. Just because he set up the basic outline doesn’t mean he actually designed the plane.
2. Top speed shouldn’t even be in discussion since aircraft rarely reach their top speed in combat.
3. But since you brought up speed anyway, the F-35 can easily reach Mach 1.6+ even on a full combat load unlike the jet it’s replacing(F-16) which struggles to reach Mach 1.4 on a full combat load
4. The F-15 would probably cost more per flight hour than the F-35(I mean it already does) if it was fitted with its avionics
Cool
BROCOM OF THE SUKHOI BUREAU
1.) Are we really going to argue over semantics? Sprey made a contribution to the F-16 and A-10, that is all that matters to me!
2.) Top speed doesn’t determine superiority, but thrust-to-weight has much more of an importance on overall fighter jet capability. Top speed indicates how fast a fighter jet can scramble, especially from a Navy carrier, to intercept enemy threats or how fast it can flee from a situation where fighting is not the best option.
3.) The F-16 flying “dirty” with all weapons loaded externally will suffer from lots of drag. The F-35, carrying nothing but internal weapons, is “cleaner” and suffers from less drag which permits an increased top speed. An F-15SE with all internal weapons and hypothetically using two Pratt and Whitney F135 engines, could possibly reach or surpass Mach 3! Which jet would you want as the air superiority fighter jet?!
4.) Yeah, the F-15 would cost more granted the age of the air frame and parts. A new build F-15 might cost more, but we balance this with appropriate numbers of F-15s integrated with the avionics of the few F-35s we should purchase as ultra-advanced forward air controllers.
Aries Man I personally would rather have the F-35. Since it would be stealthier and cheaper.
Aries Man You honestly take Sprey seriously? Yeah I think our little discussions is done here
BROCOM OF THE SUKHOI BUREAU
I can try to respect your opinion of the F-35.
C
Хубав мощен и съвременен самолет истребител
Suave photo!
Looks kind of like the blackbird
Wararka deganka